Is Jesus in the Old Testament?

Below is the transcript of Episode 12 of the FAITH AS IT IS podcast where Athina Thomas and Ruth Sandra talk to find out if the presence of Jesus Christ in the Old Testament is apparent.

You can also watch the episode here: https://youtu.be/imTJdP_-8qc

Intro (00:00):

Hello, Dear Listeners. Welcome to the FAITH AS IT IS Podcast. Before we begin this, I request you all to share this episode with your friends and family and ask them to subscribe and listen to it. We've got a YouTube channel too. Please make sure that you've subscribed to it already. If you're listening to this from apple podcasts, please be kind enough to leave review out there. And yes, if you're done doing all these, let's get into the show. God bless!

Ruth Sandra (00:31):

Hi. Hello, and welcome you guys to a brand new episode of FAITH AS IT IS. I'm here joining you guys again with Athina and, uh, so we had a lot of positive feedback on our previous episode and realize you guys are more interested to know more about the second person of the Trinity, um, in the old Testament. Uh, so we're here with, uh, with that topic today and we'll get right onto it after prayer. Precious loving father in heaven, we praise, and thank you for being amidst us this moment, Lord, we thank you most, especially for giving us the grace to understand these mysteries and help us convey that to your people through our podcast. Lord, pour out your holy spirit on each of us and may we do everything for your glory in Jesus name we make this prayer through the intercession of the blessed Virgin Mary, St. Joseph and all the angels and saints. Amen.

Athina Thomas (01:33):

Amen.

Ruth Sandra (01:36):

Hi Athina.

Athina Thomas (01:36):

Hello Ruth.

Ruth Sandra (01:38):

So we'll get onto it?!

Athina Thomas (01:39):

Yes, definitely.

Ruth Sandra (01:43):

So Athina, in the last episode, you mentioned about the angel of the Lord, now uh, are there like explicit truths that the angel of the Lord is Jesus and not the first or the third person, the Father or the Holy Spirit in the old Testament.

Athina Thomas (01:59):

Thank you very much for that question, Sandra. It's a wonderful question. And yes, we do have explicit proof that the interior of the Lord is Jesus, which I will be giving. But before that, let me just mention a few things. So the first thing is that the angel of the Lord being Jesus Christ, that is not dogmatically defined by the Catholic Church. So if any of you want to contradict us or you want to agree with us, all of us will neither be right, not be wrong because there is no dogmatic definition of who the Angel of the Lord is. The fact that the Angel of the Lord is Jesus. That is, uh, that is one of the beliefs held by the early Church. So what I am giving to you is not something new or something that we have made up. This is that the, the belief of the early Church.

Athina Thomas (02:57):

So you know about St. Polycarp. So he was the disciple of Saint John, John, the apostle Saint Polycarp the disciple of Saint John, the apostle and Polycarp, pat, the disciples, Saint Irenaeus, all of these are the early fathers, the early church fathers. And they all held on to the same view. So our interpretation is based on their interpretation, not just them, Also Justin Martyr, who was one of the greatest apologists of his time. He also held on to the same belief. So I'm not contradicting the Church. And, uh, and we are just agreeing to one of the interpretations of the Bible that the early church held. And none of you have to take my word for it, but you can go and look for yourself. You can read the early church fathers and a venue. If you have any questions as to where you can read them, you can read them on newadvent.org, go and see that what we are giving to you right now is exactly what they also believed in.

Athina Thomas (04:04):

So having said that, I just want to make one more thing clear when in the Bible, the word LORD is mentioned in all caps, L O R D in all caps. It is a substitution for the word YHWH (YAHWEH), which means the divine name. That is the name of the triune. God. So anyway, you see the Lord appeared to me, LORD in all caps, you can know for sure that it is talking about YAHWEH (YHWH) and nobody else having said that let's get right into it, The Angel of the Lord. So I want you to open first Luke chapter one and read verse 19.

Ruth Sandra (04:50):

The angel said to him, I am Gabriel. I stand in the presence of God. And I have been sent to speak to you and to tell you this good news.

Athina Thomas (05:00):

Okay. So a little bit background. This is the scene of the annunciation. Angel Gabriel has appeared to mother Mary and given the good news and mother Mary has in turn us Angel Gabriel, how this is possible and who he is. And the angel Gabriel has very openly told to our mother, I am Angel Gabriel. And he goes on to mention that he is an Archangel. So you will see how I tied this in with the answer later on. But right now, what I want you to notice is that the angel Gabriel is happily giving his name. He's saying, I am angel Gabriel. Next, I want you to open revelation chapter 22 and read verse eight and nine verse eight and nine, right?

Ruth Sandra (05:51):

I John, I'm the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and them, I sat down to worship at the seat of the angel who had been showing them to me. But he said to me, don't do that. I am a fellow servant with you and with your fellow prophets, with all who keep the words of the scroll worship God.

Athina Thomas (06:16):

Exactly. So a little bit of background in the book of revelation, this particular angel is showing John a lot of visions, which John is not pulling down at the end of this John mistakes, the angel of the Lord, to be someone, this particular angel over here to be someone that is equivalent to God and starts to worship this angel. And this angel rebukes him immediately. And he says, don't do that worship God alone. So this is another thing that I want you to notice about this angel. This angel knows who he is and he rebukes John for worshiping him. Having said that, let us open Genesis chapter 32 and can you read verse 29?

Ruth Sandra (07:01):

Yes Athina, .. and Jacob said, please tell me your name, but he replied, why do you ask my name? Then he blessed him there.

Athina Thomas (07:12):

Okay. So little bit of background. Jacob is going to meet his brother Esau after many years. And Jacob is afraid. He's terrified of meeting his brother because he thinks that Esau is going to kill him. So at night, before the night before he meets Esau, the angel of the Lord appears to Jacob and they wrestle all night. And at the end, Jacob asks the angel, what is your name? And this angel does not reply. He says, why do you ask? And yet he blesses Jacob. So this particular engine is the angel of the Lord. I want you to note the difference between this particular angel and the angel Gabriel in new Testament, in the new Testament, angel Gabriel happily gave his name, but this particular angel is not willing to give his name because this particular angel is God and God's name is divine, the divine name. And that is not good. That is not given out so easily. However, let's let us move on to judges chapter 13 and read. Can you read verse 17 and 18?

Ruth Sandra (08:27):

Yes. Then Manoah inquired of the angel of the Lord. What is your name? So that we may honor you when your word comes to, he replied, why do you ask my name? It is beyond understanding.

Athina Thomas (08:44):

Okay. So one more time. I'll give you a little bit of background. Manoha is the father of Samson. He and his wife are childless. And the angel, the Lord, you can read the entire chapter. You can see the angel of the Lord appears to his wife and face that you're going to have a child. And his wife rushes to her, to her, her husband. And she tells him this. And he asks her, who was that man, whom you saw? Because at this point, Samson's mother has not yet recognized that this angel of the Lord is the Lord, which is also explicitly mentioned in the Bible. And the next time this angel of the Lord makes an appearance. The wife rashes to her husband. They both come, they have a conversation with this engine. And at the end, uh, the, the husband asks, what is your name?

Athina Thomas (09:32):

And one more time, this particular angel, he replied by saying, my name is incomprehensible or beyond understanding, as it is mentioned over here, we can keep this in mind what the angel of the Lord said beyond understanding, or in some other translations would put it as wonderful or incomprehensible. We'll just keep this in mind. We'll tie it up with something else later on, but you can go on to read this particular entire chapter and see very clearly that the angel of the Lord is the Lord himself. But as of now, we make do with so much that the angel is one more time, not willing to give his name so easily because his name is Divine. However, Ruth, can you please open Exodus chapter three and please read was this one to five?

Ruth Sandra (10:23):

Yup. Now Moses was tending the flock of his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the far, east far side of the building and came to Horeb the mountain of God that instead of the Lord, appeared to him in flames of fire from the den of Bush. When was it saw that though the Bush was on fire. It did not burn up. So Moses thought I will go over and see this change site. Why the Bush does not burn up. When the Lord saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the Bush, Moses, Moses, and Moses said, here I am, do not come any closer. God said, take off your sandals for this place where you are standing is holy ground. Okay.

Athina Thomas (11:20):

So I think all of us as Christians have long accepted that it was God who appeared to Moses in the burning Bush. But when we read this verse very clearly, it says that it was the angel of the Lord that appeared in the burning Bush. It, when we go on to read the same chapter, we also see that this angel of the Lord is also referred to as the Lord. I'm trying to one more time, make the point that the angel of the Lord is the Lord. However, over here, I want to note that this angel of the Lord asks Moses to remove a sandal. This is also the famous passage in which Lord gives out his name, his Divine name that the Israelites have held on to for so many years that we as Christians have also accepted. But as of now, we will make, do with so much that the angel of the Lord, the Lord asks Moses to take off his sandals. Uh, next, I want you to open numbers. Chapter 22, verse 31.

Ruth Sandra (12:33):

Then the Lord opened Balaam's eyes and he saw the angel of the Lord standing in the road with the sword drawn. So he bowed low and fell face down.

Athina Thomas (12:45):

Okay. So what I want you to note in this particular passage is that the angel of the Lord is holding a sword. And when the Balaam realizes that it's the angel of the Lord, he falls face down in worship. You can continue to read the chapter and see how the angel of the Lord accepts this worship and does not rebuke Balaam. And unlike in revelation, chapter 22, where a mere angel rebukes John for worshiping him, this particular angel of the Lord does not rebuke Balaam. However keep in mind that the angel of the Lord is holding a sword. Now, Ruth, go to Joshua chapter five and read verses 13 to 15.

Ruth Sandra (13:33):

Yup. Now when Joshua was near Jericho, he looked up and saw a man standing in front of him with a sword drawn in his hand, Joshua bent up to him and asked, are you for us or for our enemies, neither he applied. But as commander of the army of the Lord I have now come, then Joshua fell face down to the ground in reverence and asked him what message does my Lord have for his servant. The commander of the Lord's army replied, take off your sandals for the place where you are standing is holy and Joshua did so, okay.

Athina Thomas (14:14):

So you can continue to read this particular book and move on to chapter six and see that this angel of the Lord is explicitly referred to as the Lord. However, I want you to note over here, two things, this man was holding us sword. Do you remember where else someone was holding a sword?

Ruth Sandra (14:37):

Yeah. You know, I think we read it in numbers then, uh, the Lord opened Balaam's eyes and he saw at the angel of the Lord standing in the road. Right?

Athina Thomas (14:47):

Exactly. And where else do you see, uh, do you, does that click when the angel of the Lord asks Joshua to remove his sandals? Do we see that somewhere? Yeah. With Moses. Exactly. So this angel of the Lord standing here is holding us ward who says I am the commander of the armies of the Lord. And I wanted to note, well that Joshua in the beginning does not understand, does not recognize who this man is. He goes over to this man and he asks him, are you for us? Or are you against us? There is something about the answer that the man gives that Joshua immediately falls down in worship. So we need to understand this answer because it is very important and it's very crucial. And Joshua seems to think that it's a big deal because he falls down and worship immediately. So the man replays, I am neither for you, not against you.

Athina Thomas (15:49):

What he means by this is that because I am greater than you. He is God himself. I do not fight for you or against you, but you are the ones who fight for me. He moves on to say, as the commander of the armies of the Lord, I have now come. The engine of the Lord recognizes himself to be the commanders of the armies of the Lord. And standing before him. What he's telling to Joshua is that here or not, you Israelites are the army of the Lord. And I will lead you. Now, just keep this in mind. The angel of the Lord holds this word, asks your show to remove his Sanders. And he could recognize us himself to be the commander of the armies of the Lord. Now I will give you the proof that this angel of the Lord is the Lord. Why don't you open revelation chapter 19 and read verses 11 through 14.

Ruth Sandra (16:47):

I still haven't standing open and there before me was a white horse. Whose rider is called faithful and true with justice. He judges and wages war. His eyes are like blazing fire. And on his head are many crowns. He has a name to on them that no one knows that he says he is just in a robe dipped in blood. And his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and just in fine linen white and clean.

Athina Thomas (17:26):

So this particular figure here is Jesus, right?

Ruth Sandra (17:31):

Absolutely. Because

Athina Thomas (17:32):

It explicitly says that he is the word of the Lord. And I think we all know that the word of the Lord is Jesus.

Ruth Sandra (17:41):

Yes. John, John, right

Athina Thomas (17:45):

From John and the armies of the Lord of following him. Right? Yeah. And who does that?

Ruth Sandra (17:54):

Oh, I see. So the commander of the army, right?

Athina Thomas (18:00):

Exactly. So the answer to the question, what would it be? Who does an army follow the commander? Exactly. So is Jesus the commander of the armies of the Lord? Absolutely.

Ruth Sandra (18:15):

As the angel of the Lord to who was the commander.

Athina Thomas (18:20):

Exactly. Do you see explicit proof that the angel of the Lord is only Jesus and nobody?

Ruth Sandra (18:26):

Absolutely.

Athina Thomas (18:29):

Yeah. So this was my proof number one that the angel of the Lord carries his sword asks for worship, asks Joshua and Moses to remove the sandals in front of him, recognizes himself to be the commander of the armies of the Lord in the Old Testament. And the New Testament explicitly reveals Jesus to be the commander of the armies of the Lord. That is why the angel of the Lord is Jesus and nobody else. However, I will go on to give you some more proofs. So for the second explicit proof, I wanted to open Zechariah chapter one and read verses 12 to 15.

Ruth Sandra (19:15):

Then the angel of the Lord said, Lord almighty, how long will you withhold mercy from Jerusalem? And from the towns of Judah, which you have been angry with these 70 years. So the Lord spoke kind and comforting words to the engine who talked with him. Then the angel who was speaking to me said, proclaim this word. This is what the Lord almighty says. I am very jealous for Jerusalem and Zion. And I am very angry with the nations that feel secure. I was only a little angry, but they went too far with the punishment.

Athina Thomas (19:56):

So we see over here that the angel of the Lord is interceding for the people of the Lord, to the Lord. He's interceding or mediating between them. Is that right? Yes it is. And who do we know from the new Testament to be doing this. Who In the new Testament is explicitly revealed to be that person who mediate or intercedes between the people of the Lord and the Lord.

Ruth Sandra (20:26):

Jesus. The only mediator, mediator between God and man,

Athina Thomas (20:31):

Exactly! What you see the role of Jesus and the role of the angel of the Lord are the same. And because they both are following the same role, we can say that they both are the same. However, I will just give you one more Bible verse from the very same book to prove the same. Why don't you open Zechariah chapter three and read verse 1 to 3.

Ruth Sandra (20:59):

Yes. And then he showed me Joshua, the high priest standing before the engine of the Lord and Satan standing at his right side to accuse him. The Lord said to Satan, the Lord rebuke you, Satan, the Lord who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you. Is not this man, a burning stick snatched from the fire.

Athina Thomas (21:24):

Okay. So we see over here that the Satan and the angel of the Lord are standing in front of the Lord and the Satan is trying to rebuke Joshua. However, the angel of the Lord is defending and interceding for Joshua. And what we see over here is that who, for whoever the angel of the Lord, intercedes, who is forgiven by the angel of the Lord, the Satan cannot rebuke anymore. And who in the new Testament does that for mankind? Jesus. Exactly. We see one more time. The angel of the Lord doing the same thing that Jesus does in the new Testament. And that is why we know that the angel of the Lord and Jesus at the same person. And I will move on to give you one more verse. Why don't you open John chapter five, verse 46.

Ruth Sandra (22:24):

If you believed Moses, you would believe me for he wrote about me.

Athina Thomas (22:30):

Okay. So here Jesus is standing in front of the Pharisees and he's saying that Moses wrote about me. So the thing is, what did Moses write? Who did Moses write about?

Ruth Sandra (22:47):

When was this story? The first five books or so oh yeah, the angel of the Lord. Exactly.

Athina Thomas (22:54):

Moses writes that the angel of the Lord appeared to him in a Bush of fire. And Jesus is saying, Moses wrote about me. So practically what Jesus is saying is that I was the angel of the Lord who appeared to Moses. That's amazing. Yes it is. And we read the Bible, but we always miss iy. Don't we? But there is just this one more proof that this will be the last, the fourth proof I'll give for the angel of the Lord being Jesus wanted to read Isaiah chapter nine, verse six.

Ruth Sandra (23:36):

So to us, a child is born, to us a son is given and the government will be honest shoulders and he will be wonderful counselor, mighty God, everlasting father, prince of peace.

Athina Thomas (23:53):

Okay. So I remember I told you sometime back in judges, chapter 13, verse 18, that remember the word incomprehensible, we will bring it in. So here is where I want to bring in again. So you see some translations in judges chapter 13 verses18. They translate the word. The angel of the Lord says to be, my name is wonderful. And Isaiah in chapter nine, verse six, he writes that the son that is going to be given will be wonderful. So in English we have a difference in the words, but in Hebrew, the word that is used is 'paliy' (P A L I Y) if I try to spell it in English, this is a very significant word and use very few places. And the two places where this word is used is judges chapter 13, verse 18, where the angel of the Lord says I am 'paliy'. And in Isaiah chapter nine, verse six, where Isaiah says that the son that is going to be given is 'paliy'. So we can see that the same expression is the same word is used to express how great this particular Angel is. And that is why we can know that this is Jesus. The angel is the Son that is given because of the word 'paliy'. We can draw the analogy.

Ruth Sandra (25:17):

Beautiful, beautiful. You know, this, this 'paliy' is in Greek, is it? Yes. Hebrew, sorry. It's Hebrew! Hebrew! Wow. Amazing. So then, okay. They've established that, uh, the angel of the Lord is Jesus and not the father or the holy spirit. So now is that any other way? Jesus makes an appearance in the old Testament apart from being the Angel of the Lord.

Athina Thomas (25:46):

Yes, he does. And thank you so much for asking that question. And honestly, the other places where he makes an appearance, it is so explicit is I won't even have to explain so much. You'll just read the verse and you will know. So I'll just give you the Bible verses. But before that, I just want you to take you to John chapter one, read verse 18.

Ruth Sandra (26:14):

Yes. No one has ever seen God, but the one and only son who says is God and is in closest relationship with the father has made him known.

Athina Thomas (26:28):

Okay? So some people misunderstand this worst to mean that no one can see God, but what John is actually dieting is that we cannot know God, the father, unless God, the son reveals him to us. We know this to be explicitly true after reading, the old Testament that no one can be in a relationship with God, the father, unless we become adopted sons to the media, through the covenant mediated by Jesus Christ. However, this truth that no one can know God, the father, unless God, the son mediates, this is not a truth that came to be after Jesus became, Jesus became incarnate in flesh. This was the truth that was there since the beginning of time, none of the prophets of old could have known God, the father, or be able to write anything had got the son not being there to mediate. I will show this to you explicitly, how Jesus has been doing this for us since the beginning of time. So you can open Genesis chapter 15 and read verse one.

Ruth Sandra (27:41):

After this, the word of the Lord came in a vision to Abram, 'do not be afraid. I am your shield. your very great reward'

Athina Thomas (27:52):

Okay. Who came to Abraham?

Ruth Sandra (27:56):

Oh my! The word of the Lord.

Athina Thomas (27:59):

Who is the word of the Lord?

Ruth Sandra (28:01):

Jesus. So explicit exactly when the first, first book of the Bible.

Athina Thomas (28:11):

Okay. So I want you to note that the word of the Lord appeared to Abraham in a vision. So it is not an audible voice that he's hearing. It is clearly someone he is seeing. So this is clearly the eternal word of the Lord who appeared to Abraham in a vision. It's not talking about any audible voice or the written word of the Lord. And this, by the way, you can continue to read the passage. And you can know that the word of the Lord promises Abraham, that he is going to have many, many children. And he also tells them to count the stars in the sky. And it tells Abraham that that is how many are the descendants are going to be. And a thing to note over here is that Saint Paul in Romans chapter four, when he writes about how Abraham was justified, this is the moment that he writes that Abraham was justified when he put his faith in the Lord. So what the New Testament taught is exactly what the Old Testament also taught that everybody from the beginning of name, including Abraham was justified when they put their faith in our Lord and savior Jesus Christ. And there is just one more Bible verse that I want to bring up to show that this particular interpretation of the Bible is correct. Ruth, can you please read John chapter eight was 57 and 58.

Ruth Sandra (29:44):

You are not yet 50 years old, they said to him, and you have seen Abraham?. Very truly I tell you, Jesus answered, before Abraham was born I am.

Ruth Sandra (29:57):

Wow, now, I see the connection.

Athina Thomas (30:00):

Exactly. So in this passage, the Jews are accusing Jesus. They're saying that our ancestor has been dead for so long. And you claim that you saw him and Jesus does not correct them. He does not rebuke them. He does not say no. I meant metaphorically. I meant allegorically. He says "very truly" I say to you before Abraham was, I am. So what he's saying is that do not look at me to be 30 something years old. And mistake me to be this old. I am so old that I have existed before Abraham. And that is why I was able to see him face to face. And here I am today, and I am always going to be he's that is exactly what this passage means, which is verified by Jesus explicitly in the new Testament.

Ruth Sandra (30:55):

Beautiful, beautiful Athina. This is just mind blowing to me. And it's been under our noses all this while.

Athina Thomas (31:04):

Exactly it has. I'll just show you two more passages. So the next passage I wanted to read is Jeremiah chapter one, verse four.

Ruth Sandra (31:16):

The word of the Lord came to me, saying, 'Before I formed you in the womb. I knew before you were born, I set you apart. I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.'

Athina Thomas (31:31):

So this is prophet Jeremiah writing. And who does he say? Came to him? The word of the Lord and who is the word of the Lord? Exactly. And if we go on to read this passage, it says that the word of the Lord put his hand on Jeremiah's mouth and appointed him. So this is clearly not an audible voice. Otherwise he wouldn't have used the word hand. This is very clearly something that Jeremiah is seeing here is Jesus appointing prophets for himself to speak and prophecy about his coming. And I'll just show you one last verse. One last book over there. We'll go to two separate places. I want you to open. First, Samuel chapter three verse six to nine. Read that first.

Ruth Sandra (32:26):

Again, the Lord called Samuel and Samuel got up and went to Eli and said, here I am. You called me, my son. Eli said, I did not call go back and lie down. Now Samuel did not know yet the Lord, the word of the Lord had not yet been revealed to him. The third time, the Lord called Samuel and Samuel got up and went to Eli and said, here I am, you called me. Then Eli realized that the Lord was calling the boy.

Athina Thomas (33:06):

Okay? So I'll give a little bit of background. So Samuel's mother was childless for ages and she begged the Lord to give her a son. And she promised that she would consecrate the boy to the Lord himself. And then Samuel was born. And Hannah did exactly what she had promised. She consecrated him to the Lord and Samuel was in the tabernacle serving with Elaine. So since Samuel had lived with the light, almost all his life, we can know that he would have been well read in scriptures because he was serving along with Eli. And yet when the Lord called him, he failed to recognize the Lord. And he thought that it was Eli calling him. Being a man well-read in the word of the Lord, in the written word of the Lord, he would have been very familiar. And yet the Bible explicitly mentioned that because the word of the Lord had not yet been revealed to Samuel. He was unable to recognize that it was the Lord. Do you catch that?

Ruth Sandra (34:11):

Definitely. Yeah.

Athina Thomas (34:13):

So here it is explicitly that because Jesus had not yet been in a relationship with Samuel, that is why Samuel failed to recognize the call of Yahweh. I will give you one last words from this particular book, the same chapter first Samuel three verses 20 to 23.

Ruth Sandra (34:41):

And all Israel, from Dan to Beersheba recognized that Samuel was attested as a prophet of the Lord. The Lord continued to appear at Shiloh and there he revealed himself to Samuel through his word.

Athina Thomas (34:58):

Through whom??

Ruth Sandra (35:00):

His Word! Again. Exactly.

Athina Thomas (35:03):

So here it is Jesus in the old Testament, doing exactly what he did in the new Testament. And we can know that Jesus appeared in the old Testament as the angel of the Lord, as the commander of the armies of the Lord, as the word of the Lord mediating between God and man, since the beginning of time. And because of the roles taken up by the angel of the Lord and Jesus, we can know that they both are the same. Amazing,

Ruth Sandra (35:34):

Amazing, amazing. Well, thank you so much Athina. Uh, so Athina, I mean, I think we've come to the end of it, but I don't think we should close without, uh, answering one of the questions from our listeners. And it's about the dual nature of Jesus. Can you, uh, explain that to us a bit, please?

Athina Thomas (35:55):

Yes, definitely. Thank you to our listeners for asking us these wonderful questions. So the dual nature of Jesus Christ is an accepted truth by the Church, which we cannot deny. So what does the church mean when she says that Jesus had a dual nature? So in creation, there are lots of persons that exist in multiple beings. So I, and you root. We are human beings and our person that is a consciousness. Your personhood is that of Ruth. My personhood is that of Athina. Though both of us are humans. Our personhood is different. You are Ruth I'm Athina. So there are multiple persons that exist. Some exist as angelic beings, like the angel Gabriel, some exist as satanic beings, like the once Archangel or now Lucifer, the Satan. He exists as a satanic being, there are plant beings or animal beings that is not a word, but let's just bear up with it that there are animals and plants who exist and have a personhood.

Athina Thomas (37:08):

And last but not the least, we have our one godly being who exists as three different persons, the father, the son, and the spirit. So this second person of this most Holy Trinity, he gave up. He didn't give it up, but he covered up his godly nature in that of being of a human. And it took up a second nature when he became incarnate by our blessed mother. So Jesus, during his time on earth had two beings, godly being and a human being. He existed as both at the same time. Now as creation of the most, holy Lord, we do not have the ability to, to exist. As two beings, we cannot have two natures. I'm a human being. I can't be an animal. I can't be a plant. I can't be an engine. I can't be a demon. I can't be god. I can have only one being and that is human. Same goes with everything in creation, but God being higher than his creation, he was able to take up a second nature. He was 100% God and 100% man at the same time. So this was a heresy in the early church because people were unable to accept how one person can have two natures because we in creation can't. So it was difficult for people to accept that God had two natures, but because God is greater than us higher than us incomprehensible (PALIY)] he can exist as two, as have, as someone having two natures. So Jesus Christ as two natures or human nature and a godly nature. He has, he is both God and man at the same time, that is what it means when we see that Jesus has a dual nature.

Ruth Sandra (39:05):

Wow. That's amazing Athina. I'm sure our listener who had this question would appreciate that. And so I think we're coming to the end of the episode. Uh, thank you so much. Definitely 'articulation is your middle name'. Give that to you, we'll thank Mother Mary for being with us through this moment and we'll say a Hail Mary. Hail Mary Full of grace, the Lord is with you, blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus, Holy Mary mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. Amen. Thank you so much for your time Athina. And I'm so grateful that our listeners are listening and they have been questions. And I think this episode most, especially for me, um, is a reminder to read the Bible because so many truths, it's just right under our noses. Right?

Athina Thomas (39:58):

Definitely.

Ruth Sandra (40:00):

Thank you, Athina. And thank you guys for listening. And if you have feedbacks and questions, you can always DM us and, you know, um, share anything, anything, absolutely anything. And we'll put the link for the newadvent.org in the description about the early Church and everything as Athina mentioned. And, uh, we also have a YouTube Channel. "FAITH AS IT IS". And we'd like you to tune into our episodes from there as well. Um, so I'm so happy to have been here with you all through this episode. Thank you so much. This is Ruth here, uh, until next time. Bye-bye.

Athina Thomas (40:40):

Bye y'all.

End Credits (40:42)

You can also watch the episode here: https://youtu.be/imTJdP_-8qc